Chechen ball in Putin's head. Ilya Ponomarev - about an armed uprising in Russia, betrayal of Kadyrov and saboteur in the Kremlin

-You have recently reported that the Russian top official from the first circle of Putin has come into contact with the event and asks for negotiations. I understand that you cannot name who it is, but can you at least say if this person was at that epic session of the Russian Council, where they made the decision to recognize the independence of the ORDLO? Video of the day - well, you understand, I can't say it because I can't open sources. And it will be just dangerous for the person.

Why lose it? If she goes to our side - there will be a huge victory and I will try to do my best to happen. - Just explain then that this person's level and how in principle it affects such things. - This is the highest level. - That is, they listen to it? -He is listened to, and this is a very, very famous person.

- How can theoretically it happen in principle? He goes with such a message to the event - that is, he wants the event to help remove Putin? And does the Kremlin not use it to ask the negotiations? - I do not know if the person I told the Daily Mirror, and the person I say, one and the same, but in my case everything is obvious. There, a person just wants to save his skin, and there is nothing more.

But it is an influential person, and he can do so much that it doesn't matter what the motive is there. It is important that it will do to be saved. I think it will be very important for our victory. - Theoretically - what can the event in this situation help? What can it affect? Use any information or what? - Yes of course.

A person can bring information, money, but in this case, the information is 100 % more significant, and it is information about very sensitive events within Putin's closest environment, it is a matter of safety, it is a matter of how at all now everything works in the Kremlin. There is a lot. And from the point of view of the event, it is transparent - a question of sanctions, asylum, security and such, but the issue of sanctions is the main.

After all, the Russian elite wants to live in the West, she does not want to live in China or even in the United Arab Emirates. As a temporary location - Okay, but permanent - no. Therefore, they want to somehow avoid what is happening there now.

- I understand that it is a matter that in exchange for some sensitive information, for example, what point can the event be hit or pressed, does this person ask for any security and bright future guarantees for himself personally? - It's not just information that can be pressed. This is Mr Putin's personal security issue. Our goal is to destroy Putin. We have no other goal because this war will only end when Putin will not. - That is, we are talking about his physical destruction now? - Of course.

- And then what happens in the Kremlin? What are the moods in Putin's environment and why do these people behave so? - There's a mood there: it was not our decision, it, as they say, "chief" decided and just need to do, and we do not agree with it and understand that this is the way to nowhere. They do not understand what they can really do with it and where to run, and how to save themselves, and how to influence the course of events, but they understand that everything is bad.

The vast majority tries to simply move and do nothing, perform their duties, but without unnecessary enthusiasm. They are doing it now. - How do you evaluate Putin himself now? He has not yet reached the stage of awareness that he loses? - Well, he is in an extremely stressful situation, but what can he do with it? There is no return path. Or he comes to a certain victory or to what he can declare as a victory, and otherwise - he goes to the Hague, and he understands it.

Now he, of course, wants to believe that victory is possible, but I do not know that he is aware of there and what is not. I think there is simply no way of winning the battlefield. I think they are trying to sit at the negotiation table right now to stabilize the situation in which it is now. It will be a certain compromise that he can sell to Russian society as a certain victory, maybe not the final, but victory.

- How do you evaluate Russia's ability to continue the war? Zek mobilization is the last reserve or not? - There is even a better story - they begin to mobilize Uzbeks and Tajiks in Moscow. Gastarbiters. - In exchange for citizenship? - Yes, they are not even citizens of the Russian Federation, they can not even speak Russian. They send them to the Chechen camps, as I think, with the only opinion: those Muslims and these Muslims - maybe they will somehow be able to talk about something.

But one hundred percent is clear: when they start to get to the front, they will not even be able to obey commanders, because they will not be able to understand them. I do not understand where it all goes, but it indicates that people are gone. Even Girkin wrote about it in his publications that now the number of so-called 500s-people who leave the front line and throw their weapons-is now greater than the number of people who fall on the front.

- Do you think Putin will not decide on the general mobilization? - I think it will be another suicide. The offensive on Ukraine was already suicide. It is difficult to become a suicide twice, it will be very difficult for him, because it is impossible politically, but if there is no other way out - and it may happen. - It is politically impossible because it can threaten internal riots in Russia? - So.

What is the attitude of the Russians to war? It is for them some football match that they look on TV and cheer: how are ours? Scored or not? And if it will threaten them personally, then everyone will try it on themselves - and here the resistance can grow in their eyes. - The Armed Forces of Ukraine with the help of NATO weapons attack Crimea, as they say in Russia - "our harbor", "our sacred everything.

" Such a story cannot be sold to the Russians as something sacred, which is why they should stand up from sofas and join the third world? - I think no. If it concerns Kursk, Belgorod and other Russian regions, it is one question. And if it concerns Crimea . . . For them, "Our Crimea", of course, but it is not quite Russia. Because Crimea was captured in Ukraine, and everyone is well aware. So I think it will be very difficult to mobilize society in defense of Crimea.

They have lost many profits through Crimea, and the standard of living has deteriorated. Many different problems. Yes to go and defend Crimea? It's unlikely. - Will Putin go through the "loss of Crimea"? For him, it is something sacred. - It is impossible. The question here is not that he is sacred or not sacred there, but that if Crimea is lost, Putin will simply become no one. He just will not forgive him either society or the elite. - Will he have to shoot? - Someone will shoot him.

He will not have time. -You were the only deputy of the State Duma who did not vote for the annexation of Crimea in 2014. Then, at the beginning, it was believed that even if Putin disappears, the issue of the return of Crimea would not automatically decide that there would be a long bureaucratic story that the Russians would not accept it, that Putin's successor would not go for it.

Now, against the backdrop of the fact that Crimea became the object of the Armed Forces of the Armed Forces and the prospect of its release of military means - this question is removed from the agenda? - I have already said that this war would not end in Ukraine - it will end in Moscow. In my opinion, this will happen before the Ukrainian army will liberate the whole territory of Ukraine. You will not need to go to the Crimea and return it by the power of weapons.

It will be easier to release the continental part, first Right -Bank Ukraine, then the rest of the Kherson and Zaporizhzhya regions, and then go to the liberation of the Donbass. Crimea is the last goal and the last territory in the queue. Putin will not survive before. You said very correctly that, having started the invasion, Putin changed the agenda within the Russian Federation by one hundred percent.

Earlier, I thought how power would change in the Russian Federation: first, I believed that we have many years, because Putin was still alive, then he would die and there would be a certain competition for power, I would join him. There will be a Navalny, Khodorkovsky, there will be a modern Russian elite, which next to Putin in his environment, and of course, it will be very risky by any Russian politicians to talk about Crimean issues-everyone will try to put it into the background.

My attitude has always been the same: to return Crimea to Ukraine, but in the plans of Khodorkovsky and Navalny there was another, they always said that it was a crime, but to return . . . Well. But now, because of the war, there is simply no other way, and the military defeat of the Russian Federation automatically means the return of Crimea. And the destruction of Putin also automatically means the return of Crimea. Therefore, I think the return will happen soon.

- When? - I would give it a year, a maximum of two. How is Mr. Arestovich there? -Two to three weeks . . . If we talk about changing power in Russia, the liberals we have just mentioned have a very low chance to come to power or do not have at all. It seems to me that there is not even a request for it in society now. - Yes, no longer. They are now concerned about visa issues - they are much more worried about the issues of war and Crimea, so they forgot, have passed.

I think that Ukraine needs to decide for itself who Ukraine wants to see the Kremlin, because as the victorious country it will have the right, and it is necessary to think about it now. It is necessary to create some alternative government of the Russian Federation, an alternative army of the Russian Federation and actively play on the site of Russian politics.

In order for the changes to take place there, it is necessary to achieve the split of elites, and in order to occur, an alternative is also needed. And it is also very important for society. However, even Putin's supporters, that he is a fraud, thief. A bad person, that he is all for himself, for oligarchs, for security forces. But they compare with the 90s, and it seems to them that it is better to be Putin, but not to return by that time.

That is why they need to show a positive alternative, they need to influence Russian society through the media. - Do you see this alternative? - It must be created. - You mentioned the Russian liberals and their hysteria about visas. How do you feel more about going to Europe than that they have to bear their part of responsibility for what their country is doing now? - I am very grateful to the President Zelensky for starting this discussion.

He spent so much time to campaign someone in Russia - "Let's get up, let's do something against Putin. " But there are certain people in Russia, who have already joined the guerrilla movement, they are making fire enlistment offices, they organized a rail war, they attack police, activists who raise money for war - that is, such a radical part, a radical movement. But all these liberals say, "We do so much, we write on Facebook, and this is also very important because it affects public opinion.

" But no, this is not important for Ukraine. The only thing that the Russians can do is the uprising against Putin. The fact that Zelensky has raised this question makes people determine whether they understand that they are in the war, that it is a global war and they are also part of this war as Russians, and what they need to say from which side.

Let there be a tenth part there: "No, we are against war, we are pacifists" - but with this part, which will decide that it is in the war, we will create new power. - In the war inside Russia or here? Immediately fighting some of the Russians. - Yes, there are now about 4,000 Russians in Ukraine who are fighting in the Armed Forces, various volunteer formations and territorial defense.

But there are many problems here, and we cannot solve these issues with the President's office with different power structures. They need some legalization. Some people are looking for on the beaches of the Odessa region and handing the military enlistment office, and here there are people who voluntarily go, try to fight and have experience, but there are many bureaucratic problems. I think it's wrong. But they are already at war, and their number is growing every day.

And the number of guerrillas within the Russian Federation increases. - You, too, in early March, seems to have joined Tro. Have you been in some tasks to participate? - In tasks - yes, but I think it was not very serious. I was invited to start doing all these movements in Russia quickly enough. On critical days, I was part of TROs when there was a direct danger for Kiev, and then began to engage in Russian theme.

- When you are making your program in Febral, who do you address, who do you say, who should hear you? - We do not refer to the Russians in emigration, we do not turn to Ukrainians, we turn to Russians in Russia and partly in Belarus. These are people who are against Putin and Lukashenko. These are the people we try to persuade to join real revolutionary events. We try to occupy the niche that Nexta occupies in Belarus - the organizer of protests. In our case, we are talking about armed protest.

- That is, you call for an armed uprising? - There is no point in going to the naked protests, because people will just get to prison, and we will only show each other our weakness, not our power. And that is why our direction is an armed protest. First a civic movement and then a protest. - Do you think it is possible? - One hundred percent. - And in Belarus and in Russia? - In Russia, one hundred percent is probable. I understand who those people who can take weapons in their hands.

In the past, I created training camps in the Russian Federation for left forces, and I am sure that there are many such people. Now I look at how they join the guerrilla movement, I see how their number is growing. Mostly, this guerrilla movement is not organized from below, they are just people who think it is right. It will also be with armed protests. - That is, people close to radical movements? - I wouldn't say so. The guerrillas are yes, 80% are now different left activists and 20% are right.

Just more right in Ukraine - traditionally they were the first to go to Ukraine in 2014. And the left situation is different, they mostly remained inside Russia, so now they are more in the guerrilla movement. When we talk about an armed protest, it is not guerrillas, but whole detachments - there will be most of the just residents of the closest outskirts of the big cities. There will be many who live in the Moscow region, areas around Moscow.

But I am a deputy from Siberia, and I saw a lot of Siberians who also asked: "When we go to shoot the Muscovites?" The same as I hear in Ukraine now. Just the same phrases. - That is, at some point in the weakening of the center, Putin do these people have to take a weapon and go to shoot a conditional united Russia? And to capture power? - I think so. They are set to restore social justice.

They believe that all these robbers need to be dismissed that their property needs to be confiscated, it is necessary to return the country to the movement of normal social development. This is the main idea that combines both right and left activists. The purpose is the same.

- When we say that the war should be the demilitarization of Russia, the deprivation of its nuclear weapons and the destruction of the power apparatus on which it holds - will Russia be able, such a large country and so different, to exist as one after all this? - There are different questions. One is the law enforcement officers, including the airfare, all this power block. This must be completely restarted. I call for universal lustration and restarting the whole system.

As for the unity of the country, the key to this is the same decentralization that Ukraine has done. If the vast majority of powers, above all financial, transfer to the lowest level, then the situation will be much more stable than it is now. As for nuclear weapons, the issue of not only the Russian Federation is a matter of the whole world society. My own suggestion: nuclear weapons must be a weapon of all humanity.

It is not necessary for it to be a weapon of one country, it can be physically located in certain territories of certain countries, but the key to its use should be in some supranational structure. I believe that after power in Russia has changed, it will be perfect if both Ukraine and the Russian Federation are joined by NATO, and it will be the best guarantee of what is a certain leadership that will control what is happening inside the country.

And then the key to nuclear weapons can be one in Moscow and the other in NATO. Я вже почав цю дискусію в різних країнах світу, тому що, звісно, тут інтерес не тільки України і Росії, в цьому зацікавлені і США, і Велика Британія, і Франція, і Німеччина, і всі інші країни.

У США дуже стурбовані теоретичною погрозою з боку Китаю, вони не хочуть, щоб Китай захопив чи мав можливість захопити Сибір з усіма природними ресурсами, тому вони вважають, що певні механізми стримування Китаю дуже важливі.

Це конструкція, яку нам потрібно створювати разом, і ще раз підкреслюю, що роль України тут повинна бути центральною. — Де децентралізація — а де Кадиров? — Мій власний прогноз: коли ситуація в РФ почне хитатись, Кадиров буде першим, хто оголосить незалежність від РФ.

Можемо на пляшку посперечатись. Єдиний шлях для нього банально вижити — це перехопити ініціативу і визначити себе як лідера незалежної Ічкерії. — Найбільш відданий буде найпершим, хто кине. Так, в принципі, часто і відбувається.

— Та я взагалі не виключаю, що це буде чеченська куля, яку ми знайдемо в голові пана Путіна. — Як довго ви вчили українську мову? Чи це складно? — Як ви бачите, моя українська не ідеальна. — Але зрозуміла. — Три місяці я її вчив.

Почав учити одразу, коли переїхав в Україну в 2016 році. Не так багато було практики. А після того, як почалось вторгнення в лютому, я почав спілкуватись українською.

— Коли питання стало руба… Ви себе ідентифікуєте зараз українцем чи росіянином? — Я український громадянин, я зараз український боєць. Але я вважаю, що буде час, коли я буду просто змушений повернутись [до Росії], і це буде в інтересах України. — Якщо буде куди.

Бо багато хто в Україні сподівається, що від Росії нічого не залишиться після війни. — Це ж неможливо. Куди всі ці люди дінуться? Подивіться на приклад Німеччини після Другої світової війни.

Скільки вона проблем створила для всього людства, але ж люди залишились, потрібно було створювати нову країну.

Для мене дуже гучний приклад — Віллі Брандт, який воював у складі військ антигітлерівської коаліції зі зброєю в руках, повернувся у свою країну і став канцлером.

— Ви думаєте, росіян можна вилікувати після того, як вони масово схвалювали вбивства людей? — Кількість росіян, які це схвалювали, менша за кількість німців, які схвалювали злочини, які ми бачили під час Другої світової.