"The propagandists helped the investigation." Interview with Christ Grozev - about the search for the cat of the Ukrainian military and the incompetence of the FSB
Bellingcat Head Christ Grozev in an interview with Radio NV told how they were looking for a executioner, as well as how former employees of Ukrainian special services tried to steal Russian aviation and the incompetence of the FSB employees, which "only in comic series only in comic series only". -On July 28, Russian telegrams channels spread two videos, on which Russian soldiers are tortured with a knife of a linked Ukrainian prisoner of war and kill him with a shot.
The Bellingcat team conducted an investigation. It was possible to establish that a person with a knife that is remembered was a tuwine named Ouch-Sughe Mongush. He is a member of the Chechen Battalion Ahmat. We even managed to find out the crime scene. Tell us about this investigation. How did the Russian propagandists help you, including the American pro -Kremlin blogger Patrick Lancaster? - I want to start by what we do not call the suspect's name.
We describe the procedure - how we have proven the investigation to a convincing end for us, to a very convincing hypothesis that should be transferred to law enforcement agencies to understand them. And we will do it. There are many international bodies that will investigate military crimes. And above all it is a very terrible military crime.
It was one of the rare cases where, perhaps, inadvertently, propagandists who work for the Kremlin or want to protect the Pro -Kremliv point of view, working on propaganda, or not, they helped them in the investigation. In an attempt to show success (in this case, Akhmat special forces, which is formally part of Rosgvardia, but actually subordinate directly to Ramzana Kadyrov), they removed this intelligence group.
At least five were filmed: we found five propaganda videos that show them during the capture of the Nitrogen plant, Lisichansk, Severodonetsk and more. This gave us two very useful things to us and other investigators. First, many times we have been able to find in high quality [image] it was the person who was very similar in his clothes, the things that he had in his hands, on a person who is visible without a face in the video with murder.
It was the first part to help because we were able to narrow the number of possible criminals suspected of two. But only one of them was really near the same car - a white car that was visible behind the faces of those who committed crimes. It is a white car with a hand -drawn letter Z twice. One could not think that there was such a second car because the letter was painted with certain angles.
We found such a car in the propaganda video of Patrick Lancaster, which he shot in late June - early July. We saw one of these men who were with such a hat, with such things on his hands, literally in this car - he took a bottle of water. It really was a key moment. Without this, we would not be able to prove that it was not a crushed video that someone did not wear the same clothes to stage this murder on the camera.
The fact that we see the same person on this criminal video in front of the same car, and on the video of Lancaster - it was a key point. Sometimes propagandists do useful work. I think it is simply the consequences of the New World's war, in which propaganda cannot only act in one direction, that is, it always leaves traces and can be turned into weapons to find the truth. - With the help of facial recognition systems, you were able to identify the suspect. You even called him.
How did he give himself? When did you make sure that he is? - The conversation was very long. I think he did not realize from the beginning that it was Bellingcat, though I was recommended by Bellingcat journalist right away. At some point, he said the absurd phrase: “But I was questioned by the FSB. You cooperate with them. Ask them. " He may not have understood at all how the world media system works.
The most important thing he told contradictory things, some of which were probably correct, others - [false]. He was probably told that he had to speak so. He said he was a man with a cowboy hat in all these propaganda videos, and called them several. But in reality, these were those who showed his face. I tried to stop him and said, "Wait, and you were in a video where there was a white car?" He said, "I was in all these videos that show.
" Then he began to deny, to say that he did not see a white car in his life, because it was key to attaching to a crime. He said Akhmat has never used a white car, and special forces in Ahmati use black armored vehicles. This contradicted him to the following words when he said he was never part of Ahmat.
How can he know what machines Akhmat uses if he is not part of it? He began to claim that he was in Ukraine only to accompany journalists of Russia Today, Ria Novosti and other Russian journalists; that he was inserted into his hands a gun that he had never used a rifle in his life; that he works in the Ministry of Emergencies (this is, by the way, truth). But it is not true that he did not hold the rifle in his hands.
We were able to find on his social networks closed now, many photos on which he held the same sniper gun, with which he was seen on propaganda videos. Further the most interesting. He told how immediately after these videos with violence on Russian telegrams, he was called by the same journalists and said: "You need to solve this problem somehow. " He claims that they were recommended to contact the FSB and explain that it was not him.
Apparently, they recognized him: not only we, not only software, but also his acquaintances, who spent much more time with him than we are with you. He claims that he went to the FSB and gave up. The FSB was kept: once he said - two days, the second - four. As a result, he said, they proved that this is a video fake; that this video shows a completely different situation where Ukrainian servicemen punish the Ukrainian soldier. - That is, they are tortured. - So.
When asked, how then in this video a person with your hat, with your car, he began to claim that such hats could be bought by any people. If you believe his absurd version, first, the FSB was suspected for two or four days, and then ceased to suspect him. According to his version, a very high -quality fake, in which millions need to be invested, is made to accuse anyone of the unknown Russian from a republic. His versions were internally contradictory.
The most important thing was that he probably inadvertently said: the FSB was told that the scene of the crime was in the village of Privilia, where, according to him, the Ukrainians did it to a Ukrainian. This was narrowed by the search radius. Criminals often voice some of the truth, because it is easier for them to follow narratives. We started looking in Privol. This helped us find a completely specific place where this crime was committed.
We call it in our investigation - 90 meters from the sanatorium, which is visible in the frames of the murder itself. If there was a percentage of doubt before talking to him, then after the conversation, I had an inner conviction almost 100%. -Do you think this video accidentally got into Russian telegrams? To intimidate Ukrainian or Russian military, for example. - I think that you should always look for the simplest explanation that is enough to explain the situation.
There were three parts of this video. The launch of the first part was inside the channel for mercenaries (people were professionally treated, from their point of view), they were divided into two parts. Some of them said that it was necessary to show such things to prove to Ukrainians that they do not need to go to the army, to enroll in a volunteer. Some logical goal in their argumentation was.
And the other half said that "it is all the good we did with Ukrainian, but Europe will see it differently. " Then they began to think: maybe it was not necessary. In a few hours the position of administrators of these channels changed. Obviously, someone called them. They said that "they are not sure that we are most likely Ukrainians. " There is a second, conspiracy explanation.
The video, of course, is authentic, really shows the Russian fighters who do it, but I do not exclude the possibility that the Russian special services, having received this video once, sent it anonymously pro-Russian telegrams-channels to get it. This is a normal practice during the war. We do not fully understand the path of this video to telegrams, but most likely the easiest explanation that they themselves wanted to boast about it, to frighten future Ukrainian servicemen.
Then the FSB told them, and they realized that it was a very bad idea. - The FSB has accused you that you were a participant in the operation of the abduction of Russian aircraft. They reported that Ukrainian intelligence tried to steal the Su-24 bomber, Su-34 fighter, strategic TU-22M3 rocket launcher. You said that such a special operation was indeed on the part of Ukrainian special services.
- not special services, but former employees of special services, who are currently doing it on a volunteer basis. - Do I understand that these are the same people who were engaged in the operation with the Wagnets in July 2020? - This is part of the same group. - How did you hear about this operation? - We have a Bellingcat unit that deals with documentaries.
We with the same group of director and producer who made a movie about Navalny and won a lot of awards, began to shoot about the Wagner operation. It was at the end of 2020. Then they paused. As a result, we continued to make this movie after the movie about Navalny, and then the war began. Of course, it was illogical to finish that movie, because a new theme, a new topic.
But one of the plots, which the same team decided to continue to shoot for a future documentary, is what people who were engaged in this operation on the Wagnerians, are doing in wartime in 2020. The team began to look for them. We recently filmed them with them last December, so it was easy to find them. There was a very interesting documentary that we were going to publish after the war. Now the FSB has included me in this fighter, as if I was a participant in it.
This is, of course, full of absurdity. But they are satisfied because they try to show this for an internal audience that Bellingcat is not only investigators, but they are really involved in special operations. - They try to discredit you even more. And how did the operation happen? - I do not know how secret something is, because the operation quickly turned into an information on both sides.
It was clear in a few weeks that the FSB had mastered the communication channel and therefore the information came from the other side. On the Ukrainian side, also began to provide spoiled information. Such an information game was published on both sides. It was very interesting to watch and shoot, but I do not want to delve into details, because the FSB arrested a certain number of innocent people in Russia. I don't want to give them more reason to invent a new accusation.
This is a somewhat dangerous topic for innocent people. But I want to say two things. In these materials that the FSB launched on television air, there were obvious fakes - fake communication in a chat seem to be in WhatsApp between a man with my avatar and some courier in Russia. This is not my phone. I never had a number that starts with English +44. -Because they think you are the Mi-6 agent. - It's good. You need to make such a phone.
For the avatar, they took some of my official photos, which is on the Internet. Second, the FSB pointed out in its materials that they believed that Ukrainian intelligence tried to poison the second pilot with some substance, clonid. I can say, witnessing this conversation, because we made it for the movie: such a proposal for poisoning came from the Russian pilot, which then worked for the dictation of the FSB.
It is quite obvious that the FSB tried to push such poisoning in the conversation, so that they could accuse Ukrainian intelligence in their PR. I saw that during this operation they revealed a lot of internal secrets as the FSB works. This is useful for us for future investigations. I think it is also useful for those volunteers on your part who have seen it too. "In fact, our volunteers connect with Russian pilots and say," Want to get a million dollars, pass your plane.
" - "Look at the law that enables you to get this money. " - "We guarantee you safety. " Further, this communication channel is obtained by the FSB and start writing to get information about these volunteers and, apparently, how Ukrainian special services work. -and create a PRA-Rapar, that is, to substitute the Ukrainian special services. - And when it became clear that it was FSB? It seems that one of the pilots said that he wants not to take his wife to the EU, but a mistress.
You found it an FSB employee. - That's right. When a person suddenly changes the most important in life, that is, who he wants to save, to take out of the country, and then he shows a photo of a mistress, a passport that is manifested by some beauty. Then she begins to lie that she has no passport, and your volunteers have found on Instagram that she was traveling the world, which was in Turkey two months ago.
There was some contradiction, he himself did not know anything about his "beloved", it became clear. For our investigation, we checked its billing and saw that it was constantly communicating with FSB counterintelligence. He has accumulated a list of counterintelligence, which should be very classified.
It turned out that they communicated with a regular telephone line, but we found their Instagram accounts, in which they post in front of military aircraft bases, just near Lubyanka (the building of the State Security Bodies on Lubyansk Square-Ed. which only in comic series can I imagine that it can be present. - What conclusion did you draw? - I want to describe a specific photo. A person boasts his new car, parking it in front of a military aircraft, one of the most important.
And this is at Zhukovsky Military Airport. The car number is visible, the plane number is visible, the date. You can do what is called Reverse Engineering - what happened there. We are always surprised that they have this lack of competence, but such examples can rarely be seen. The conclusion is that the system is such that they protect each other from manifestations of incompetence. They cover each other, so they think they have no enemies.